Thursday, July 19, 2007

LTTE Multi Barrel Rocket Launcher uncovered : Thoppigala

Sri Lanka Army soldiers engaged in clearing operations in Omunugala region were able to uncover one of Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE)'s most valued possessions today. Army was able to unearth one of the two Multiple Rocket Launching systems which the LTTE had previously used to shell army positions.

The 12 barreled 107mm MBRL is said to be in usable condition. LTTE cadres had applied a large amount of grease on to the weapon, to prevent it from decaying and rusting. Unlike the 120mm mortars which were previously discovered, the MBRL has not been deliberately damaged before burial by the fleeing LTTE cadres .

161 comments:

  1. Thank you defencenet for the info.

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  2. Is that true this was made in Iran? What's the difference between our MBRLs and these?

    Defencenet, Anyway do you think LTTE has MBRLs in wanni? if so how many?

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  3. Fabulous!

    What I love about this is:

    "The 12 barreled 107mm MBRL is said to be in usable condition"

    Now, let's use this MBRL (not that we are desperate need as we have the nifty RM71's to do the job) to pulverize some LTTE bunkers in Omanthai and broadcast widely that we did it using this MBRL...imagine the horror of the LTTE supporting filthy Diaspora!

    :)) :)) :))

    OaO Asithri

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  4. This is Great news :)
    Hope we can find the other MBRL also soon and fire them tandem at the fleeing tigers :) But is suppose we might not have ammo for this smaller version :(

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  5. yes! If this is true then that's really good news.

    It would be a rocket attack on their moral, "literally" if we can barrage them with a salvo from this MBRL and shout this out in the media!

    A great opportunity to pulverise their moral as never before!

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  6. If I understand it correctly, the LTTE MBRLs are the typical 'Katyusha' types, and are supposed to be not very accurate. Said to be of North Korean origin, and small enough to be mounted on a gun boat.
    Can anyone verify whether these are factually correct ?

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  7. Type 63 107mm Rocket Launcher
    Type 81 107mm Rocket Launcher

    The Multi-Barrel Rocket Launcher (MBRL) has 12 tubes arranged in three lines of four tubes each. All the tubes are parallel to each other and mounted co-axially on a cradle. Ammunition used with the MBRL is in the form of Rocket which consists of one piece. Warhead is attached with rocket motor. A fixed amount of propellant is contained in the rocket motor. The rocket is stabilized with a slow spin.

    The Type 63 (12-round) MRS is mounted on a rubber-tire split pole type carriage, while the Type 63-I is a packed model for airborne and mountain units. The Type 85 is a single manportable tripod-mounted launcher tube for use by special forces units. The NORINCO Type 81 (12-round) is mounted on a 4X4 truck, with a enlarged cab to accommodate the crew of four and 12 reload rounds. The vehicle suspension is locked for firing, and the entire system can be dismounted from the vehicle and placed on a tow carriage. The launcher can be fired from the cab or from a remote position.

    Several variants of North Korean design and manufacture are known to exist [which are evidently without a formal designation in the open literature], in addition to the basic configuration of 12 launch tubes in array of 3 rows of 4 tubes. Two other North Korean self-propelled versions exist: one with 18 tubes and one with 24 tubes. As with the Chinese variants, the North Korean 12-tube launcher can also be can be towed or mounted on a 4 leg stand, or mounted on any suitable wheeled or tracked vehicle.

    The Type 63 HE-Fragmentation Spin-Stabilized Rocket is an electrically initiated, rocket incorporating a high-explosive fragmentation warhead. It is normally fired from a trailer- or truck-mounted multiple launcher, but may also be fired from single-tube launchers mounted on small boats. It is a barrage weapon used against personnel and material. Rockets of early manufacture are painted battleship gray or dark green; later rockets are olive drab. The bourrelets and nozzle plate are unpainted. Markings, stenciled in black and providing manufacturing data and nomenclature, may vary on individual rockets. Setscrews lock the adapter to the warhead and the adapter and nozzle plate to the rocket motor. The nozzle closure screws over the base of the nozzle plate. A hole in the center of the nozzle closure is crimped around an insulated stud in the center of the initiator assembly, thus waterproofing the base of the rocket motor. The initiator assembly electrical contact is exposed through the center of the insulated stud. The nozzles are canted to provide spin.

    The Type 63-2 Rocket is an 18.8-kilogram (41.5-pound) rocket containing a main charge of TNT weighing 1.3 kilograms (2.9 pounds). The rocket is olive drab with black markings. The warhead is made of metal.

    The 107mm spin stabilized incendiary rocket contains an unknown amount of White Phosphorous (WP). The rocket is painted olive drab with black markings. The warhead is made of metal.

    Specifications
    Diameter 107mm
    Length
    Weight 18.84 kg
    Range 8,500 meters

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  8. Soory I forgot to mention the origin of the information.

    This place carry some pics as well.

    http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/type-63-r.htm

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  10. Has any of you seen the pictures of the said MBRL?

    During ITN news they only showed the ammo/rockets...

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  11. Yes, where are the picture? May be yahoo news photos might have it?

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  12. ranil & Tropical storm,

    About the ammo for the 107mm MBRL’s, I think the army & navy has ammo for them.
    I believe that the SL Army’s first MBRL was a Jeep mounted 12-tube 107mm gifted from Iran.
    The navy displayed one Type-63 launcher at BMICH. And recently claimed a hit on a Sea tiger boat with the MBRL, the boat was crippled and captured off PPD with twin 14.5mm HMG’s.
    So it is clear that the Navy has mounted the 107mm on board FAC's, the navy deserves credit for this. As for the origin being DPRK, well Janes Defense claimed that the Tigers used a twin tube- man portable launcher to fire at the Trinco Dockyard some time back.
    The DPRK, China and Iran all make single, twin and 12-tube 107mm launchers. The 12 Tube 107mm MBRL is also made under license in Turkey.

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  13. Everyone who is concerned about photos:

    You may see a video of the MBRL in tonight's Rupavahini or ITN news.

    There is something we forgot to mention in the article. Out of the 12 barrels only four have been found. Its speculated that there are two more sets of barrels buried in the region. However the launcher is in tact and the weapon is usable.

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  14. Hey Milmi, Thanks mate the site you have given contains many information. Good Job Mate.

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  15. Thanks defence net

    "Out of the 12 barrels only four have been found"

    I thought it was one unit. Does it mean that you can separate the barrels? May be stupid Question to ask!!!

    Anyway, we can get an idea once they showed the captured unit.

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  16. Yes, of course the barrels can be removed. This is true for all weapons, from heavy artillery to assault rifles. This is for maintainence, replacement, etc.

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  17. So what was found was the barrel assemble was it? Well I thought it came with a special vehicle and a triggering component as well.

    Does this mean that the rest of the barrels will be functional as well?

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  18. Hi All,

    I think Army.lk have published a picture

    http://www.army.lk/morenews.php?id=6957

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  19. even here

    http://www.defence.lk/new.asp?fname=20070718_06

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  20. http://www.army.lk/morenews.php?id=6957 says that they recoved "1700 rocket propelled grenade rounds". What does this mean? 1700 RPGs? If so that's a huge haul of ammunition isnt' it?

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  21. Cheers for the news on the MBRLs but has anyone seen this?

    http://www.southasianmedia.net/index_story.cfm?id=408249&category=Frontend&Country=SRI%20LANKA

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  22. DefenceNet,I saw some news about SUSEI in ITN newsbar.is it true?

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  23. Kun,

    Who or what is SUSEI, do you mean Soosai?

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  24. "Who or what is SUSEI, do you mean Soosai?"

    yes sam,it's about soosai.A blast in tigers area & It say soosai badly injured.

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  25. "So what was found was the barrel assemble was it? Well I thought it came with a special vehicle and a triggering component as well."

    Barrel assemble, carrier (2 wheeled drag type)and a barrel with 4 rocket slots were recovered. Other barrels are either buried or were damaged due to continuous use. This confirms MI reports about LTTE not using the MBRL to its full potential (fired 4-6 rockets per round). It was initially thought that them being short of ammo was the reason but it might be because MBRL was damaged.

    Nothing is confirmed yet about the explosion in LTTE territory.

    Sam, yes Oshada's talking about Soosei the leader of Sea tigers.

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  26. Defencenet,

    "Nothing is confirmed yet about the explosion in LTTE territory."

    I hope that we will hear the good news this time unlike TS's case.

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  27. Any more news about Vice admiral Soosai?

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  28. Vice who :) ... Don't give them something they already don't have.

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  29. Hello vidurange!.CIC-Velu,Air marshall-Charles Anthony,UN representatives-mahathanamutta& Revi,sritharan,Vice Admiral Soosai,Black tiger Brigade commander simon gardner..etc:):)

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  30. What is really worrying me is what these sadistic lunatics will do when they are really cornerned in wanni.Since their net annual income is in the range of £200-300 million (if you believe the papers) this fellow can build a small nuclear weapon-because i think he will end it in dramatic style.But he needs weapons grade plutonium which is not easy to get.consider the british i am told have got an inventry of very advanced weapons this guy shanthan was supposed to buy.thir eyes and ears peeled.a very

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  31. the navy needs to be extra vigilant

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  32. Below is from Daily News
    =========================
    Soosai caught in boat blast

    Rafik Jalaldeen

    COLOMBO: The LTTE Sea Tiger leader Soosai was critically injured in a boat explosion off Mullaitivu seas yesterday morning, military sources said.

    According to the Military sources an LTTE suicide boat exploded in the seas off Mullaitivu yesterday morning. "We believe that the sea Tiger leader Colonel Soosai was in the exploded boat and critically injured", sources added.

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  33. It is very unlikely to soosai to be in a sucide boat. Isn't it? Even if that part is true is it possible some one to survive in such an explosion? Anyway I hope he will beocme a mahaveer soon.

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  34. From Island;

    Sea Tiger Chief attacked?

    Military intelligence yesterday probed rumours that Sea Tiger chief Soosai and his son were badly injured in a bomb attack in Mullaitivu. So far no confirmation has been received.
    Army sources said that Navy and Air Force last week carried out attacks on the Sea Tiger bases in Mullaitivu but were unable assess the damages.

    The TamilNet did not have any news to the effect that Soosai was injured (NP)
    __________________________________________
    Lankatruth claimed Soosai is dead due to a naval attack.

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  35. "Since their net annual income is in the range of £200-300 million "

    Hi SL,

    Well according to Jane's report that is their profit margin, which means just cash left over after whatever they spent it on, so the actual income could be far higher!

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  37. Sri Lankan

    Mate, this figure of 200-300 Sterling Pounds per month that the LTTE is alleged to collect is absurd.

    As many of you know from my past interactions, I work in investment banking in the US and deal particularly with world markets and one of the things we are required to be cognizant of (as part of our "due diligence" tied to our ethics) is the potential for money laundering by the various banned terrorist groups (e.g. Hamas, Hezbolla, Islamic Jihad, ETA, LTTE etc.) and I have seen published stats on how much these orgs. are supposed to collect from their Diaspora and nowhere have I seen a figure like this attributed to the LTTE. The number I have seen attributed to the LTTE is more like U$10 million max per month. LTTE may earn revenues from other "business" ventures, but I can't see it adding up to 200-300 s-pounds per month.

    As for the $10MM/month from individual contributions, that is too huge a sum to begin with and that's why there is this great cooperation now on part of the international banks on the anti-money laundering/anti-terrorist financing front. Most of the pressure on other countries to abide by the recommended standards (to curb money laundering and terrorist financing) such comes from the US federal regulators.

    OaO Asithri

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  38. About the nuclear bomb thing, I think they should have a somewhat large bomb to do a considerable damage.

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  39. defence net,
    any news on Mannar attacks this morning?
    reuters reports that 3 troops and 9 rebels killed.

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  40. all,yes thats rite.it was a cluster bomb that was recovered.why? dint it explode on impact?can some1 tell me what make/model was this bomb.anyway are our mig27's stil flown by ukrainians.why cant our fellows get trained on them?v r wastin too much money on these mercenaries.obviously there had to be a defect in the cluster bomb.y else wasnt there any impact.

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  41. DefenceNet

    where are u?
    whats happnibg in mannar ?????

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  42. Asithri..Its great your in international banking.This is the LTTE's most important "front"-THE FINANCIAL FRONT.What is interesting is the british govt not giving us access to these docs w.r.to santhan as opposed to the maldives helping us as much as they can.well seems like they are playing the usual games with the govt of SL.They cant really give us this info because it will show the number of british companies engaged in the LTTE armaments "money game".NEVER underestimate the LTTE.

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  43. LTTE launched a medium scale attack on Neelachchena camp but it was sucessfully neutralized by the army.

    3 soldiers KIA and another 4 wounded. LTTE casualties unknown.

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  44. Hello jack-No one knows what is meant by the word "profit" in this case.Is it profits before corporation tax?-gross profits?.Is it profit after what expenses have been deducted.It will depend on the accounting system they use.Fx is it profits after allocations have been made(appropriations)...what?

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  45. Traitor in trouble. http://www.tamilbrisbane.com/content/view/592/1/

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  46. http://www.defence.lk/LTTE%20Attrocities/LTTE_Atrocities14june.pdf-Just in case we forget-Add on to this the brave members of the defense forces who have died/brutally tortured & killed in their 100's.

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  47. Four more barrels of the LTTE MBRL weapon found- Thoppigala
    http://www.defence.lk/new.asp?fname=20070720_04

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  48. Three LTTE cadres killed; 81 mm mortar gun captured - Thoppigala

    defence.lk

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  49. I need some info guys. A couple of years ago there was a controversy about some rehabilitation work that needed to be done on the Pallali air base and India had offered to perform the work for free in exchange for some prohibitive conditions on its use.

    I saw this news article on Tamilnet:

    http://www.tamilnet.com/art.html?catid=13&artid=22781

    Did the government actually agree to those conditions or were some new conditions agreed upon?

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  50. Defencenet,

    LTTE says they found 10 bodies SLA soldiers...

    We shouldn't allow LTTE to take the upper hand..
    It is better to attack the LTTE FDL's all the time.No ground troop movements but pure bombing of the FDL targets..

    According to the reuters reporters in Vanni ,
    LTTE is forcing the tamils for the war. But they are increasingly oppose it.That means, LTTE IS desperate now..They want to turn the tide against the SLA which they are finding very hard to do.

    We need good intel on LTTE gun positions and attack them when possible..Taking out few LTTE leaders would be the ideal solution here..

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  51. DefNet poste earlier some bit of news, but here's the update I just saw:

    [Associated Press, Fri July 20, 2007 00:20 EDT . - - COLOMBO, Sri Lanka - (AP) Separatist Tamil rebels attacked a military post in northern Sri Lanka - early Friday, sparking a clash that left three soldiers and nine rebels dead, the military said.]

    Now the kill-ratio in this engagement in favor of SLDF is 3:1.

    I have stated the following in another forum and I'll state it here again, in the above context:

    Once, some of my staff from our predictive modeling group (most holding either a masters or PhD in stats or mathematics) did a forecasting/extrapolation model as a fun exercise to figure out what the kill-ratio the LTTE would need to WIN this war one day. They took into account the population percentage/absolute base-number the two sides can draw recruits from, ability to replenish depleted cadre strength, the military strength in armaments, military logistical capability, medical-treatment capability for casualties, funding capacity to procure weapons, ability to receive weapons, motivation factor, and a host of other factors and the forecasting/extrapolation model indicated that:

    The LTTE needs to constantly have a kill ratio of approx. 20:1 in THEIR FAVOR to ever have a hope of winning this war!

    Now all you intelligent people here can see the futility of this war that the LTTE is waging against the rest of Sri Lanka!

    OaO Asithri

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  52. they left that mbrl because it's an olderversion.they might think that srilankan army will give latest version of mbrl in future batteles. cool baby

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  53. Looks like last 4 barrels found.
    link

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  54. "The LTTE needs to constantly have a kill ratio of approx. 20:1 in THEIR FAVOR to ever have a hope of winning this war!"

    Hi Asthiri, that is pretty interesting, but really I don't think the body count is what is going to win the war, the LTTE have no hope of totally eliminating a 200,000 strong military.

    As in the past their goal is going to be to destroy the government's ability/will to wage war as was done in the 2001 era with the economic blows through the KIA attack etc. So to look at it from a purely body count view I don't think gives the whole picture.

    Since if that were the case the US should have won in Vietnam, after all they killed over a million vietcong to losses of 50-60 thousand US troops. That is pretty close to your 1:20 ratio.

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  55. I agree with Jack on this. what the LTTE is looking for:
    Making the war prohibitively expensive in terms of manpower(loss of life),resources,increased cost of living etc.They want the war to continue for a period of at least 2 years so that elections are held in US/locally.In the meantime they want to kill/injure at least 5 soldier a day! like in the past.what they did not anticipate is that they would loose much more cadres than the army.However theirs is a dictatorship whereas we live in a democracy..so the moment too many soldiers start to die regularly you will see many peace bodies/politicians trying their best to destabilse the country in order to win votes..etc.So the cycle continues and war goes on..
    DefenceNet(when you have the time) any news of the mannar casualty figures and exactly what happened.

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  56. " The number I have seen attributed to the LTTE is more like U$10 million max per month. LTTE may earn revenues from other "business" ventures, but I can't see it adding up to 200-300 s-pounds per month. "

    Hi again Asthiri, just reading backwards LOL...

    With all due respect I think an organization like Jane's would do their research before publishing such a sensational item.

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  57. Asthiri, that seems to be a pretty comprehensive calculation that you've made there. However, kill ratios are not a factor in the result of this war. An insurgency by nature is not an all-out war as they do not have a chance at countering a army that vastly outnumbers them. The LTTE is engaged in an attritional war that aims to limit the governments capacity to wage its fight. Be it attacking critical financial targets to the detriment of the country's economy or lobbying foreign policy makers to stop the 'state aggression'. The LTTE can kill small numbers of people (military/civilian) to slowly sap the will of the government to continue this war!

    Furthermore, many of the variables that you've identified in your calculations are correct if you base it on the information that is widely available on-line. But the truth is that no one really knows the true capabilities of the LTTE. Furthermore, the government's ability to fight the war is inversely related to the length of the current phase of confrontations. This is mainly attributable to the lack of a local defence industry and the governments fast running out of military suppliers as we have a number of unpaid bills.

    I am not a mathematician, but you've forgotten one of the key factors that will always affect this conflict, and that is International opinion. I know Rajapakse has said that the country does not need foreign aid for development work but tbh it does, especially in the East. International opinion is directly linked to the reduced tourist arrivals lately and in turn reduced government income in this sector that could have been diverted to the war effort.

    On a different note, found this I think should be on Mahinda mama's shopping list to give Prabhakaran Mama on the next 'Black tiger' day:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GBU-43_Massive_Ordnance_Air_Blast_bomb

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  58. Hello again Jack.No one knows on what basis Janes got that figure.The sad fact is that the EEC has done "piss" so far with regard to stopping the LTTE money machine.The little bit they have done so far is 1)To show Govt of SL they are doing something-why no more news of Santhan?-i mean progress
    2)To show the tamil diasphora who belong to tamil parties not supporting the LTTE that they are doing something-all for the tamil vote

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  59. Oshada

    check out the movie on this one

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/moab.htm

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  61. For SL to buy expensive missiles is pointless in many respects.The govt needs to supply an army fighting a guerilla war-ie spend money on small arms and employ a large number of people to defend the vast areas of land it has recently captured while at the same time allocate funds (generously) to meet the needs of ex-serviceman which is exactly what it is trying to do rightly. War is a video game till your friends and relatives start dying at which time it becomes real.We are not trying to impress anyone or any country for that matter with our military might.

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  62. If we ever got our hands on a MOAB we'll literally have to drop it out of a C130, just like what the SLAF did in the 80s, cos there's no way our MiGs can carry those stuff. They are already unable to carry lots of types of conventional weapons used by the USAF.

    I'll rather see us getting hardware like this to kick the hell out of the LTTE. (not that it's ever going to happen though)

    (Larger pic)

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  63. illegal.existence-Nice weapon..ideal for us!!.Sadly wont be on Mahinda mama's shopping list:)

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  64. yeah thats why they call MOAB the Mother Of All Bombs

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  65. Oshada.... I read at DC Defence Forum paper 2 yrs. ago that Indian supprot for Palaly came with heavy strings such as Runway not exceeding 7500ft and the thickness of the ashphalt plus the ramp space with shelters were restricted cuz, Palaly needs upgraded ramp space badly ! Indians fear one threat to there coast and later regional airline access. It's all to protect there Butt !

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  66. "Illegal.existence said...

    I'll rather see us getting hardware like this to kick the hell out of the LTTE. (not that it's ever going to happen though)"

    I guess they are ideal in places like Iraq and Afganistan because of the vast barren land. Furthermore, conventional patrols with light armoured vehicles is not practical in the mountainous border areas in Afganistan.

    I don't think you can use the strike Predators in Sri Lanka because of the lush vegetation ideal for insurgents conceal themselves!

    To be honest what we really need is basic technologies to secure our airspace and our EEZ. They have to stop the LTTE aircraft taking these short flights around the state's air space! They don't have to attack anything to make a statement; the mere fact that it is in the air is an act of defiance!

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  67. Here are some good news.

    18 July 2007: While the LTTE is in most part defeated in the east, they have made good their promise to wage a terror campaign. On the 17th, an LTTE assassin murdered the chief administrator of the east. More such killings can be expected. Most of the organized killing is now in the north, where fighting grows more common and intense, and there are now several hundred casualties a week. In the north, the Tamil population is increasingly demoralized. There is growing resistance to LTTE demands for people (at least one adult per family) for combat or support duties. There's not much else to take, because the economy in the north has been wrecked by the war. The majority of the population is living off foreign aid, which the LTTE taxes as well. Meanwhile, LTTE fundraising efforts (both voluntary and compulsory) among expatriate Sri Lankan Tamils are being destroyed by local law enforcement. Now that the LTTE is considered a terrorist organization in most parts of the world, raising money for them is considered illegal. Thus, LTTE income has dropped from about a quarter billion dollars annually a few years back, to under $10 million a month currently.


    So far the LTTE refuses to negotiate with the Sri Lankan government, and apparently hopes that some super massive commando operation will turn things around for them. That seems unlikely, but the LTTE has no option but to try. In the last three decades, nearly 70,000 have died in this war, and at least a few thousand more may die before it's over.

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  68. That is what I thought they the LTTE was trying..

    We need a solution on the table now...

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  69. Does anyone remember the incident involving a couple of Mi-8 (?) helicopters that were piloted by mercenaries, which landed in Sri Lanka some time ago? There was speculation that they were intended to be delivered to the LTTE. How did that episode conclude? What happened to the air craft?

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  70. Sri Lanka needs to conclude this war. So my guess will be that there will not be any excuse, or solution that the LTTE can accept with any dignity offered at this point.
    There are international players in this game now, and the conclusion is already choreographed.

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  71. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  72. Sri Lankan,

    if we can drop one MOAB on Praba’s base in mullaythivu it will take the fight out of the ltte. Did you read what it is capable of???

    Illegal.existence

    The MOAB is ment to be dropped from a C130.

    The MOAB was shown on Discovery channels Future weapons is was awesome if only we can by one

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  73. yankeezulu:Is MOAB guarenteed to hit the target?.Is there a chance it may miss the target.If it fails to hit the target how many of them will be required to do the job?.Has it been tested in battle before?.Once VP+his close associates are dead will a LTTE faction take control and carry on murdering people for fun?.If so what would it have achieved.Spending millions to kill a few sadists is uneconomical.How much will it cost?.What% is this of our defense budget?.Should we not spend it to reduce the cost of living and finally give a ray of hope for all peoples of SLanka?How many innocent northern tamils will this kill?-If it kills many then all the tamils in the north (including the moderates) will definitely demand a seperate state.
    Different topic:
    Do u know why the marvellous patriot missle failed to stop crude weapons like the scud ?

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  74. To fully understand how fantastic finally taking control of thoppi is you have to be in your late 50's or 60's or fought in military campaigns in the past.For 30 yrs all we have heard are peter apps and simon gardners bShit.Now finally they are shedding croc tears about LTTE's forcible child recruitment?.

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  75. When that Bast**d peter apps got hurt in a car crash the govt should have sent him to killinochchi for medical treatment

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  76. He he... after reading that article and a few other on the web...with the Moab...there's nothing called "missing the target"...That bloody thing is navigated by gps so even if it misses buy a few yards or a dozen of yards...doesn't make a big difference to the outcome...

    Sungoat can't be staying at only one hideout right? I would assume that he has a few locations that are heavily fortified...probably connected by underground tunnels or something so he can move around Without risking his security.
    MI must be having some info about these places especially after karuna incident

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  77. Hello Ranil:If sungoat dies..will this take out all the other sungoats who are waiting to take control of the LTTE spread around the north? or do we use a few say 5 or 6..incidently what is the cost.Take into account the LTTE amy still have a few missiles to surprise us.

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  78. Does anyone know if we still manufacture Buffel APCs? The lanka made version is called the Unibuffel.

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  79. Sri Lankan...
    hey buddy. Just popped into office before heading out to dinner :)
    IMHO...
    If Sungoat dies...there will be cracks opening up in their leadership. There's no one person to take over from him and remember these stupid fools think he's actually a god or something like that :)
    Even if somebody else takes over...i doubt that the outfit will remain the way it has been all these years...
    The great thing with these kinda weapons is that they have a "shock" value...It'll break the will of these poor sods who've not seen anything except war all their lives..
    Too bad we don't have that kinda money to get these toys. Plus LTTE is not out there in the open to go and bust them out in on go

    gotta go
    catch ya later

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  80. decapitation strikes. that's the name of the game me thinks.

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  81. Actually jack what i meant was how many bombs will we need to take out all the leaders spreadout in the north?.If u r in the LTTE u want to become their leader to get hold of LTTE money, amass your personal wealth and send yr kids abroad and educate them with LTTE money so it is in the leaders interest to prolong the war whoever he is.

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  82. Sri Lankan…

    With regards to the MOAB its just a dream, something on the wish list, the U.S. military developed it to be used in Iraq I believe but it was never used. I don’t think its too expensive because it is relatively low tech, other than for a gps guidance system and some very nice sounding chemicals. Besides the U.S. will never sell one to us. The posting with regards to the MOAB was posted purely as a, what if….. thought and nothing serious. Just a cool dam weapon.

    I totally agree with you on reducing defence expenditure at the present moment… with the C.O.L. going up the way it is and disposable income on the decline it has a big bearing on me and my business.

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  83. Oshada I agree we really need to improve our air defences (read: interceptors), specially after the trinco "flyover" pretty much proved our AA capabilities near the FDLs are close to zero. Even though there we no economic targets close to where the LTTE aircraft was spotted, they could easily use them simultaneously with a ground offensive and really demoralize our forward troops.

    That said, regarding aerial bombardment, if you read the accounts by foreign correspondents who were allowed to travel to LTTE controlled area, the things the LTTE cadres say they are most afraid of are our warplanes. I don't think MI has any way to find out the exact casualties from air raids and there is no way the LTTE wil provide actual figures, but it's reasonable to guess they'll be really high. But I think the blow to the LTTE moral knowing any second there may be a Kfir flying over their camp and dropping a few bombs will be a lot more significant than the casualties they suffer.

    And YankeeZulu, I literally meant "drop" and in "manually throw out of", cos none of our C130 are configured as gunships that could handle such a bomb :)

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  84. "And YankeeZulu, I literally meant "drop" and in "manually throw out of", cos none of our C130 are configured as gunships that could handle such a bomb :) "

    IE, that is pretty much the way the MOAB is delivered anyway, its on a pallet and is pulled out by a shute from the cargo hold of a C-130.

    I don't think there is any aircraft with hardpoints that can carry a MOAB :)

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  85. Here is a good video of it happening:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ea-DinsBJQ

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  86. Sorry Ranil my previous posting was for you not jack.hope you had a nice dinner

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  87. Yankeezulu-once this war is over we need to convert all the regular army into SF and equip them very well.We also need to look into their needs like good housing and employment prospects.I dont know if it is a good idea to introduce some kind of conscription.2 segments of our society need to receive special attention-armed forces and the farmers/fisherman.

    ReplyDelete
  88. http://www.independentsl.com/cgi-bin/newsscript1.cgi?record=2003
    A smear campaign on TMVP

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  89. srilankan,

    I am of the opinion that we should maintain 500,000 strong and well trained military well after the Eelam wars are over. As a small country, we have to think of our future in the world. We need to build all kinds of alliance with our friendly countries. More than that, it should not be considered a waste to maintain such a military force since it is going to help the economy in two ways, 1) by bringing stability to the country and 2)puts more money in circulation and hence more economic growth. We should never let our guard down like Switzerland does.

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  90. Absolutely Illegal.existence. In view of this the government's moves to procure supersonic interceptors does make sense as it is impossible to have point air defences along all of the FDLs. Furthermore, if area air defences were implemented in areas at risk such as Trincomalee, Mannar/Vavunia and the Northern FDLs it inly increases the risk of it being captured by the LTTE.

    BTW guys does anyone know whether the work currently being done at the Pallali air base is done with Indian funds or with our own?

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  91. There's always the simple option of eliminating the entire concept of a 'forward defence line'.

    I thought this war was for that purpose.

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  92. Yeah Oshada that's a good point that ground based AA systems could be captured by the LTTE. About Palali, I don't know how relevant this article is, it's from August last year when the LTTE launched that offensive. Going by it, there are currently 3 runaways, 1 main one and 2 shorter ones built by India. Not sure how accurate Lankaenews is though.

    Jack yeah I didn't realize it was offloaded through the cargo hold, but still I'd assume a C-130 must need some customization before it's able carry out heavy bombing runs. That's why I believe the Combat Talon variation is used for the Daisy Cutters and the MOAB.

    Sam 500,000 soldiers is a really silly idea. When this damn war is over, you'd have to be awfully pessimistic to think that we'll somehow end up in a conflict that'll require one twentieth of the population to be mobilized. I'm willing to bet Switzerland will never have to actually used the military it currently has (although mind you their annual defense budget is double ours). The world is drifting away from the petty wars it has witnessed over the past 3 millennia.

    And I'm pretty certain our kids who fail English at O/levels are smarter than half the college students in developed countries. Given the right conditions they could be serving the country in a lot better ways than being in the army.

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  93. Sri Lankan

    Whether smear campaign or not, Karuna must be made to stop recruiting kids.

    We are also making a fundamental mistake in believing that the enemy of my enemy is my friend. This guy is not our friend. He is simply another enemy, more dangerous because he's in disguise.

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  94. illegal,

    I am not talking about an all regular army of 500,000 but volunteer and regular mix. If we had a force of the current size in year 1981, where do you think the current problem can be today? Yes it sounds silly but I don't expect our country to get off from this problem for next 20 years. It will go away very very slow. We all will do wonders if we can foresee the future conflicts. However, we all know that the world population is going up and resources are dwindling rapidly. I don't know from what quarter the next conflict would spring up, but another conflict will be inevitable with rapidly dwindling resources. Better prepare our military today for the future when we have a real conflict in hand.

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  95. Hello sam perera.I agrees with you.however i dont think switzerland has let its guard down.If switzerland is going to be invaded all those tank traps set in the mountains will need to be overcome.Also a mobile figthing force on skies is incredibly difficult to overcome.

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  96. tropicalstorm: Sadly papers cannot be believed.However once we destroy the LTTE then we can decide on karuna by the behavior of the TMVP. As a political party if the people dont vote for him then he is nothing.After loosing an election if he engages in criminal activites in order to further his political ambitions then we have the law to deal with him. As for child recruitment-have you been to his camps?-i have not.Also this child recruitment has very many facets.Again are we depending on info in papers too much?.My question: why are not these agencies who accuse karuna of child recruitment not actually visiting his camps on regular a basis?.

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  97. This is the problem:Certain LTTE friendly "parties" want this conflict to go on forever.They know that the Karuna group is helping the army.They also know they are running out of ways to make sure SL "does their bidding".So accusing Karuna of child soldering is a way of trying to enforce control on SL.Besides this a eastern tamil betraying a Jaffna tamil is such an insult for VP-(refer bollywood movies-sword fighting etc-effect preceeding the cause etc).Imagine the embarrassment Karuna has caused some countires.Lets wait and see.

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  98. Now why doesnt MR Simon Garner (God save the queen-rule britannia-britannia rules shit go to the east and interview Karuna instead of VP?)

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  99. Tropiclatorm:I am getting carried away here.Very unlike me:).Would you prefer a child being forced to sell his/her body in order to live and get AIDS than join Karuna in areas where there is minimal LTTE presence?

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  100. Tropicalstorm no offense intended

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  101. Slothbear brought up an important point. Do we still manufature the unibuffels in Lanka? Can anyone answer this?

    The V-shaped hull concept is becoming popular with even the US building their own Cougar HE vehicles(MRAP).

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  102. srilankan,

    I don't think that we can compare Switzerland to Sri Lanka directly, as long as geography is concerned. What I am saying is that as a nation, we should never let our guard down, even in a peaceful era. That is why I was talking about forming alliances with neighbors etc.

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  103. srilankan,

    One more side note. Nagenahira Navodaya celebration on the surface looks like an unnecessary party on the surface. However, deep inside it serves several significant purposes at the international level, national level, and then at the political party level.

    I believe that this helps the current govt to improve the political strength among majority of the people. Most of the our great soldiers are coming from non-urban areas and they are given due recognition for their unrivaled contribution to the defence of our country (Honestly, those brave soldiers have restored our dignity back with their lives and limbs and we owe them a lot). In return, the ruling party will gain more support from them and their folks.

    On international and national level, this action brings us a sense of stability and it is going to help the economy. The international community sees political stability in the country and hence more tourists and investments, the very same things LTTE is trying to destroy.

    In summary, it is all about how things are perceived by others; and perception of a stable country is important for the real stability, growth and prosperity. That is where we need sizable stabilization force, i.e. a sizable military force.

    Sam

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  104. "My question: why are not these agencies who accuse karuna of child recruitment not actually visiting his camps on regular a basis?.
    "

    Hi SL, I think the UN did visit his 'camps' but it turned out to be a hurridly setup mockup camp on one occassion and then on another all the kids had been moved out.

    Karuna is most certainly using kids, as they are seen'patroling' the streets in the East. The GoSL should do all in its power to disassociate with him, he is a bad mark and no one believes either side that they have nothing to do with the other.

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  105. Sam perera i agree with you.Sadly i hope we avoid as many casualties as possible in this "mannar offensive" which is likely to begin soon since MI has warned of an LTTE build up in mannar.A group of female tigers have been dispatched to mannar.

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  106. Sadly Jack i dont agree with child recruitment.However the best way to stop child recruitment is to develop the east like the president is trying to do.I prefer Karuna having child soldiers than they being kidnapped by the LTTE.As a civilian i think that the chance of children coming out alive at the end of this conflict is much higher with Karuna than with VP given he abuse they suffer under vp.After all saving the childs life is more important than anything else.

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  107. We already have about 1 billion barrels of oil in the Mannar Basin and more cound be found. At the current market price the oil in the Mannar basin in worth over $70 billion dollars.

    Thats serious cash for a small country like Lanka. Even a fraction of that sum can help buy us better equipment for out forces and help create jobs in the country. The economy could seriously be boosted.

    Oil cound be found in the sea stretch from Puttalam to Hambantota in the future.

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  108. defencenet any news on this supposed fighting in Manar area?

    TN says its all over, SLA attack was repulsed, LTTE themselves claim 5 dead on their side. Nothing on SLA casulties except 'heavy'.

    Nothing on defence.lk or MCNS pages.

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  109. "once this war is over we need to convert all the regular army into SF"

    SL, that's neither practical nor sensible. Special operations units are geared for specialist tasks, and only those. Just as we would lose the war if we had no special forces, we would lose it if we had no conventional troops. Would you have only accountants in a company, or only sales staff?

    "I am not talking about an all regular army of 500,000 but volunteer and regular mix"

    Sam, I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. The British armed forces (regular and territorial) is less than a quarter of a million troops, and you're suggesting a small nation like us should have an armed forces double that of the UK? Who's gonna pay for this? If the war is satisfactorily concluded, the armed forces will be halved at least.

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  110. Thanks David.I was thinking about providing "civilian" jobs for those soldiers who are no longer needed in the army after this is over.However we need to guard our borders.Is in not a good idea for us to have an army that is fully employed in civilian life but who attend regular training for a decent small wage while maintaining a small regular army. Persons in the army should be trained in professions like-paramedial,nursing,engineering(mech,civil,),medicine..etc.Now this village homeguard is a very good idea.These people should be given advanced training in their crafts.I hope the govt will implement it.

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  111. Yes, it's true that the GoSl will have aa lot of unemployed soldiers on their hands. One way to keep up the size of the Army is by regularly hiring out units to the UN for peacekeeping ops as we're doing in Haiti, but it still means a lot of downsizing.

    Yes, a reserve is a good idea, where soldiers being demobbed will be on call and have to undergo a month of training each year.

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  112. David blacker,

    Thats a good point you have brought up regarding the subject of post-war troop downsizing.

    Because of this conflict, the constitution of the defence forces is disproportionate with a large Army, while in reality we should have much greater resources allocated to the Navy and Air Force as the greatest threat to an Island Nation would always come from the Air and Sea. In my opinion the key to downsizing is an increase in the level of technology and training that are troops receive. In the future, while admitting that we will need conventional troops, I still believe that we will need a greater proportion of specialised forces within a numerically reduced armed forces (eg. STF and Special forces) because of our South Asian Neighborhood. If we had these forces in the early years of the conflict, then Sri Lanka's history would have been written differently as we would have been able to negate India's meddling in our internal issues!

    Furthermore, what do you guys think about National Service in Sri Lanka? Putting aside the LTTE issue for the moment, Sri Lanka is in a part of the world that most people would describe as a powder-keg. With both of our close neighbors having nuclear weapons and China's growing power, we need to have a large pool of conventional forces that can be called up readily. I am ashamed to say that although the Sinhalese would tell their children that they have a 'lion ancestry' the vast majority would not prefer to do it!

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  113. "Furthermore, what do you guys think about National Service in Sri Lanka?"

    Put it this way. If it was obligatory for ALL sri lankans, then I would most certainly go. I would do this even as a holder of foreign citizenship. The Israeli's have national service and I think it would be very good for SL too. But in SL if such a thing was introduced do you think it would work? What with all our corrupt bastards? In the end it will be the poor and powerless that will have to carry the burden, while the rich manage to ship their children off overseas.

    I'm itching for national service. I wish Australia had it. I'm not the fittest comrade in the world but if I knew I was actually needed for something, then yeah, of course I'd get in shape and start organising myself. This shit is good for a lot of young directionless people.

    IF ONLY!

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  114. it would also be a good way to lift some of the age old class prejudices dogging our society. national service SHOULD (theoretically at least) be a mixing pot of economic groups, where it shouldn't matter who you are or where you come from. Everyone starts on a level playing field. Other plus sides include seeing the countryside, physical/mental development, and realising a sense of citizenship and responsibility for the care of others. Oh! how we could use this today in Sri Lanka!

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  115. "Sam, I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. The British armed forces (regular and territorial) is less than a quarter of a million troops, and you're suggesting a small nation like us should have an armed forces double that of the UK? Who's gonna pay for this? If the war is satisfactorily concluded, the armed forces will be halved at least."

    David,

    It sounds ridiculous in conventional sense, but we better be prepared for future conflicts, specially in a world of rapidly dwindling resources. We should put end to reactive planing in Sri Lanka. Please don't consider the land of Swiss to be my utopia, however they had a 500,000+ military for a population of 7 million. As a former military man, you know well that it is the cost of hardware that matters than the salaries of soldiers. For a small country like us who don't produce weapons locally, soldiers salaries are the only thing that get pumped back to the economy. Therefore, most of the money given to soldiers (not hardware) will be circulating in the country further helping the rural economy. We will have little or no time to reactively prepare for future conflicts.

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  116. [Heavy fighting erupts in Mannar
    Fighting erupted between the army and the LTTE in Tampanai and Mullikulam in Mannar last night. Fighting started after the Tigers launched an attack on the military forward defence lines, the army said.Information on the damage caused to either side was not available. Meanwhile, the LTTE also confirmed the confrontation with the security forces.]
    The above is from daily mirror.

    To talk about demobilizing the SLA is pretty much premature..

    I don't think this is going to end in even after 10 years unless otherwise the Sinhalese come up with a solution that would satisfy the tamils...

    As long as the GOSL delays it, the formation of Ealam is very real even though LTTE was defeated in the East..

    SLA is facing hurculean task to defeat the LTTE in Vanni...

    We should not ask SLA to march to Vanni knowing that hundreds of Sri Lankans will die...

    It's not worth it...


    If King Dutugemunu is still around he would go only after Velu...

    Get Velu , Game over...

    We need bloody good intel..

    We need to know where this meniac is hiding...

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  117. Oshada, I agree that the SLAF & SLN need to be beefed up to face foreign threats as well as preventing support for domestic threats. However, I disagree with you about the propportion of special ops troops to conventional ones in the Army. Even now, our SF component is disproportionately large for our forces (5-6 operational battalions + SBS & STF), where a country like the UK has two operational battalion-sized units (SAS & SBS) and one reserve. The problem is that our SF handles certain roles that should be conventional, such as the amphibious assault and airborne roles. We should have dedicated marine and airmobile units. The SF should only be used for very specialist roles like hostage-rescue and guerrilla/recce ops.

    I'm not really a fan of national service. I'd give it a definite thumbs-down in wartime, but think it doesn't matter in peacetime. Most countries that have it, like Switzerland and Germany, have a long tradition of military service, and it's more traditional than a necessity. I've spoken to several Germans who've gone through national service, and most of them thought it was useless. And unlike Israel we're not likely to facce a sudden overwhelming attack that would neccesitate the mobilization of huge reserves.

    Jiffy, if you're so keen for national service, why don't you try the Australian Army? I think they have short-service options.

    I agree that in wartime, most elite SL youth would escape the draft (as they did in the US), and also, having unwilling troops in the ranks only weakens the Army. Good examples are the US in Vietnam and the USSR in Afghanistan and Chechnya.

    Sam, Switzerland is an incredibly wealthy nation, and well able to afford that sort of a system. As you said, hardware's expensive, and if you want a resevoir of 500,000 troops on call, you need to have the weapons ready for them to use. Switzerland produces its own firearms so that's not a prob for them. Also, that sort of a reserve needs regular training, which also costs money.

    A typical peacetime SL Army would be about 50-60,000 regulars with maybe that much again in reserve. That would be realistic.

    While it's true that we must be prepared for future conflicts, we must be prepared for the most likely conflicts, not all types. What is the most likely scenario in a post-LTTE SL? We must be ready for that.

    Tangara, you're right, it's not gonna end in 2-3 years as predicted. But this is just abstract debate, and always an interesting "what if."

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  118. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  119. Can someone tell me what this gun is?

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/10286352@N07/876717498/

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/

    10286352@N07/876717498/

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  120. We need to expand our navy and give it more teeth and more sea patrol capabilities than the airforce or the army. The navy has always lagged behind of all three forces.

    Its good we make our own versions of the Dvoras in CDL, but we need better sea surveillance capabilities to hurt the LTTE in this war.

    Lanka is lucky to be an island, waster is easier to patrol than a land border. patroling land borders is a nightmare(Iraq's borders, Afghan/pak border, Mex/American border).

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  121. David,

    copy the two parts in the second and third link and paste it as one to the URL or add 98 to the first URL

    (This is about the Gun Photo)

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  122. David,

    Keep in mind that, SL has every hope to be a rich country like Switzerland if there is no war. Therefore, it is not an impossible task to have a large military reserve for us.

    The next conflict is most likely going to be a foreign conflict for resources. Look around for our giant neighbors who need more and more resources. We have to be prepared to not to get intimidated by them. We need deter conflicts than directly engaging in conflicts. A 60,000 strong military is definitely not sufficient for deterrence. Either we need to build alliances with our trusted friends or improve the military capacity or we do both. Also producing our own hardware is something we should seriously consider. We have to think unconventionally and off-the-wall to get out of this hellhole and remain a free nation.

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  123. No LTTE, the link still doesn't lead anywhere.It's asking me for a yahoo ID which I don't have.

    Sam, it'll be long cold night in hell before SL approaches anything near the wealth of Switzerland. A lack of war isn't enough. There are many asian nations with peace, natural resources and much more which are still 3rd world. We've got rampant corruption and general inefficiency, coupled with no political vision, but a very politicised society. Solve all that and we might be doing OK for a 3rd World nation (which is a start). Forget Switzerland, something like Malaysia is probably the best we can hope for.

    For us to have a war for resources, like fishing rights or maritime oil, there has to be a huge breakdown in relations in South Asia, and that's not likely.

    A 60,000-strong army may not seem like much, but realistically that's all we can afford. We can't afford the army we have now, and that's why the economy is in a bad state,.

    Yes, we can (and should) form alliances, and we have already. But to manufacture firearms we need the capability to machine and stamp precision components, and we don't have that. We first need civilian industry to catch up with the rest of Asia before we can think of making weapons. If you wanna build tanks, first start with trucks and tractors and cars; if you want to manufacture firearms you need to start with mechanical equipment with moving parts like power drills, cutting machinery, etc.

    It's not thaat eaasy, so if we want to be self-sustaining militarily, we have to start with the civil infrastructure.

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  124. No LTTE, the link still doesn't lead anywhere.It's asking me for a yahoo ID which I don't have.

    Sam, it'll be long cold night in hell before SL approaches anything near the wealth of Switzerland. A lack of war isn't enough. There are many asian nations with peace, natural resources and much more which are still 3rd world. We've got rampant corruption and general inefficiency, coupled with no political vision, but a very politicised society. Solve all that and we might be doing OK for a 3rd World nation (which is a start). Forget Switzerland, something like Malaysia is probably the best we can hope for.

    For us to have a war for resources, like fishing rights or maritime oil, there has to be a huge breakdown in relations in South Asia, and that's not likely.

    A 60,000-strong army may not seem like much, but realistically that's all we can afford. We can't afford the army we have now, and that's why the economy is in a bad state,.

    Yes, we can (and should) form alliances, and we have already. But to manufacture firearms we need the capability to machine and stamp precision components, and we don't have that. We first need civilian industry to catch up with the rest of Asia before we can think of making weapons. If you wanna build tanks, first start with trucks and tractors and cars; if you want to manufacture firearms you need to start with mechanical equipment with moving parts like power drills, cutting machinery, etc.

    It's not thaat eaasy, so if we want to be self-sustaining militarily, we have to start with the civil infrastructure.

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  125. Despite all the bans, LTTE's fund collection machine is active in every country they operate.

    In UK, Canada, Australia, France, UK they come weekly to shops and collect the funds. They still knock on doors of Tamil civilians doors every month to collect $ 200 to 500 equivalent they collect.

    If the governments of these countries want to stop this fund-raising, they can do it within a day or two. However, they are not doing it, but only arrest one or two leaders as PR stunts. But the fund-raising still goes on.

    The expats should write to these governments and pressure them to take actions to curb these funds. LTTE's biggest strength is these funds.

    In the mean time, Sri Lankan government should create Special Forces Units similar to Military SF in order to combat corruption in the country. That initiative will add Rs. 3 -5 Billion every year to the government coffins, that can be used to develop country's infrastructure.

    Mahinda has to get rid of institutional corruption. That is also key in fighting terrorism and deeloping the country.

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  126. NoLTTE, check privacy of that photo? It is uploaded friends/family only. Just paste the direct links.

    Sam, our closest regional neighbours are India and Maldives. India can swat us aside like flies. The only thing that they really lack is proper amphib ability. Having more bodies in SL uniform won't make a huge difference. Ask the Iraqis how long they lasted against the US.

    China have a few places to cover before they come for us. Everyone else needs to do airlift/ mid-range naval landings. Not impossible, but difficult unless India looks the other way.

    The trend is for forces to become smaller more specialized and better equipped. Throwing conscript bodies with 3 months training at a military problem doesn't make sense. A great example is Falklands 1982. There are more.

    You also make an argument that rural youth will send the money back home. In that case, why not set them to digging ditches or building roads in their area and pay them for it? Infrastructure in the area improves, the salaries are a cost that would be borne anyway and you provide directed training i their eventual task instead of messing about teaching them to shoot a gun.

    Surely an army is the most expensive thing you can have hanging around waiting in the hope it will not be needed? ;) I don't remember the author of that quote - but it applies here.

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  127. I am sorry about the previous link not showing

    Please check this URL and let me know what this gun is:

    http://tinyurl.com/23o8rq

    Thanks!

    ReplyDelete
  128. It would take us at least 30 years to reach the properous level of Switzerland.

    Our economy grew by 7% last year, which is really good and its on track to grow by another 7% this year according to the CB. If lanka's economy continues to expand by 7% for the next 10 years straight then our economy would double in size. That means we could become a middle income country like Brazil. Poverty would still be a problem but a lot less of a problem than it is now.

    If we can develop our own offshore Mannar Basin oilfield within the next three years, then we won't have to import oil form other countries which costs about $2 billion a year. That means we could potentially save $2Billion US dollars annually. Just Imagine what we can do with that kind of money annually in Lanka.

    There is enough oil in the Mannar Basin to keep us not dependant on foreign oil for the next 15-20 years.

    What do u guys think?

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  129. One of the main reasons we cant march into the wanni is we will be killing innocent people who dont support the LTTE other than our own troops.

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  130. NOLTTE=Peace,

    That is a Chinese Type-85 or Type-89 12.7mm Heavy Machine Gun on a Tripod.

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  131. Is my posts appearing on this thread?

    Can someone say yes or no?

    ReplyDelete
  132. David,

    "It's not thaat eaasy, so if we want to be self-sustaining militarily, we have to start with the civil infrastructure."

    Yes, it is not easy but it is possible. I think that now is the time to start such a process.

    Goldeneagle,

    I like the way you think. We dream the impossible and make them come true somehow.

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  133. Nemesis.. Thanks for the clarification.

    Golden Eagle.. your messages are appearing in the forum

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  134. Scipio,

    “The trend is for forces to become smaller more specialized and better equipped. Throwing conscript bodies with 3 months training at a military problem doesn't make sense. A great example is Falklands 1982. There are more.”

    I am not sure if this is true generally. Lack of manpower is the biggest problem US army has in Iraq. No matter how well trained military is, the lack of manpower is a big problem there. Also I am not talking about throwing conscript bodies with 3 months training.

    “You also make an argument that rural youth will send the money back home. In that case, why not set them to digging ditches or building roads in their area and pay them for it? Infrastructure in the area improves, the salaries are a cost that would be borne anyway and you provide directed training i their eventual task instead of messing about teaching them to shoot a gun.”

    You are right, we can put youth to do construction as we do now. However, having a great construction industry alone is not sufficient for the stability of the country. In addition all of them are not just soldier but who has another job to do in time of peace. Any way, my point here is that we shouldn’t consider it to be a waste since the salaries get circulated in the economy and it brings in the stability to the country. Stability will bring in prosperity in return. Therefore, it can be considered an indirect investment in country’s growth and prosperity. For a moment, think we had a military of current size in 1981. Where could be the problems we see today? If we could straighten the problem 25 years ago, where do you think our country can be today?
    Please don’t take my numbers in the face value, but as the general direction we should be heading to achieve peace, stability, and prosperity.

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  135. Sri Lanka only has one sure-fire resource. It is the Human Brains!

    Knowledge Economy is the biggest economy and the highest paid per hour ly basis in the world.

    Sri Lanka should focus on creating a 'knowledge economy'.

    It requires lot of investment in education and taking all the rural folks also into the knowledge stream.

    Sri Lanka has no land or natural resources as the other countries. But, we have a very high concentration of brains.

    Instead of making brains that go and do domestic chores in the Middle East, or sew garments in Garment Factories, we have to develop these brains to knowledge workers. First, we will export these brains, and later will export the services.

    In the mean time, we need to irradicate corruption and inefficiencies in the country, and eliminate LTTE.

    The government should not wait until one dimension to be solved to start the other.

    This should be a three-prone attack in all the fronts.

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  136. David, I had no idea that the proportion of our special forces was that high. I know it is very optimistic of me to start talking about scaling back after the LTTE and it is likely to be decades away, but I thought it will be a good discussion to have instead of the usual kill ratios and government conspiracies. I still have to stand by my initial comment that a smaller army with greater special forces is ideal for us. Full scale wars will be a thing of the past and considering our geographical location, most military ops will be counter-insurgency in nature. Deploying conventional forces is cumbersome and will only alienate the local civilian population. It might be true that our conventional forces at the moment are not performing more of the special forces' roles. Unfortunately, our conventional front-line forces are nothing more than men with guns and I am afraid that with every special forces victory the MOD is cementing this mindset among the soldiers that only the SFs guys are able to fight at the same level as the LTTE.

    Some of my mates from Singapore were telling me about their National Service they had to do before University and they said the exact same thing about their experiences. My view is that the greatest thing Sri Lankans can get out of it is the fact that it will be an opportunity for people from all religions and ethnic groups of similar age to meet and cooperate to achieve a common goal. We South Asians are living increasingly polarised lives, where in Sri Lanka we would only talk to another Tamil/Muslim in the shops or they are simply another site on a journey! Don't get me started on the disadvantaged! I am not saying that something like this will completely remove the prejudices in our society, they will always exist but I think it will go a long way to make things better. As you said, there will always be people trying to avoid such commitments but there are ways and means around that, for example you could make it compulsory for citizenship where it is not something that is simply implied by birth but rather a right that must be earned! In my optimism I forgot to go into the whole process of industrial development to support any future local defence industry. It is disheartening when you realise that this 20 year long comflict would have been an ideal opportunity to set up a rudimentary defence industry (eg. small arms ammunition and even artillery ammunition) with a ready export market. However, as usual individual interests seem to have taken precedence over national interests.

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  137. noltte=peace

    You are wrong. Lanka has plenty of natural resources. Countries like Saudi Arabia have very few natural resources but they make up for it by having insane quantities of crude oil.

    Lanka has lots of resources underground. And our soil is fertile too. Did you know that about half of the fruits and vegetables in Lanka are consumed but just rot into the ground. This is sad but true. We produce enough food to export in vast quantities if we can only get our current inefficient government bureaucracies into shape and make them less corrupt and more efficient.

    If there was no war we could use the northern lands to grow various grains so it can once again become know as the "grainery of Asia" as Lanka was known centuries ago.

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  139. Sam is right. If we hand a 150,000 strong army back in 1983 then this war would have been long over. We have to learn from this to face the future.

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  140. slight on my previous post.

    **Did you know that about half of the fruits and vegetables in Lanka are NOT consumed but just rot into the ground.**

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  141. Oshada, In Singapore national service was started because the Singaporeans suffered immensely during the Japanese Occupation during the second world war. Singapore was the worst defeat for the British in their long history. The japanese were extremely cruel especially to the chinese.

    However the main reason national service was started was because the army and police was dominated by the Malays. They are the so called original people of the region though the majority of them in Singapore are themselves migrants from South East Asia. Hence they wanted to bring the chinese who were a majority into substantial numbers in the army and police.

    There were many race/ethinic riots in Singapore up to 1969. Singapore was part of Malaysia from 1963 to 1965. Malayasia was predominately having a Malay majority and Singapore a chinese majority. After the 1964 riots, the Malaysian prime minister felt it was better to go for a split and in 1965 Singapore became independent. However the situation did not improve for Malaysia and broke out to the last and worst riots on May 13 1969 which also affected Singapore.

    During the race riots the Malay policemen and army personnel were seen to be biased and believed to turned a blind eye to murder/rape and looting of the chinese.

    In Singapore, the Gurkhas who are nepalese by origin were used to be the neutral party. Hence as Singapore was seperate in 1969, the effects was not as serious. In 1971 the british decided to leave their largest naval base outside Europe in Singapore. Hence Singapore was forced to raised from its meagre 2 regiments to todays 250 000 strong army/police. However the Malays do not hold significant and sensitive post. The armoured, artilerry,signal and other sensetive units do not have Malays in combat or any other position. This was highlighted by Malaysia and Indonesia several times.

    The Singapore armed forces started of by having an indian commander and 3 other indians with Col ranks of the original 6 Cols. Today not many Indians hold appiontment of Indians. A good number of Burghers(Eurasians in Singapore)are found in the Air force. Some of them have Sri Lankan blood. A gurkha regiment still is present in Singapore to put down coups and do policing during ethnic fights.

    Your mates are probabily chinese and national service has helped built discipline in their people. The different ethnic groups still tend to congragate in their groups. Even if they do mix it usually does not go beyond national service. To what extent national service has helped ethnic relations in Singapore is a good question.

    I guess in Singapore case a strong economy has helped keep the various ethnic groups pacified. Through public housing, all races are divided equally and spread out throughout the country. Newspapers and media are govt controlled and no racialy dispharging remarks are allowed.

    Although Singapore is Chinese majority, the national language and anthem is Malay. Ironically majority of non-malays understand or speak Malay.The president is Indian and the currency has the face of the countrys first president who was a Malay. Managing various ethnic groups is not easy and its a delicate balancing act that Sri Lanka thanks to her politicians has not achieved.

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  143. GoldenEagle forget 150,000 troops, if we'd killed Prabhakaran and all his fellow leaders the day they were born, this war would have been over before it even started. But that's just wishful thinking. No one expected things to get this bad, and there's no way a president could have justified a military that large back then, specially given we'd just opened up the economy and were creating tons of jobs.

    Sam you're not getting the point that we cannot sustain a large military right now, and it will be a huge waste of resources. If we were rich enough ("like Switzerland") maybe, but that's a long time away. The reason the US witnessed such a boom in growth beginning in the '50s was the effect of the millions of soldiers who were demobilized joining the workforce and becoming middle class consumers. Added to that, the overblown infrastructure that was geared towards supporting the war was diverted to civilian use. We don't have such a large military manufacturing process, but the effect of diverting military resources could be huge, especially the money used for defense spending and, more importantly, the human capital invested in the war.

    And big dose of pessimism, David? If you put any "3rd world" country, Malaysia in your example, through 25 years of bloody civil war, there's no way their economies will have handled it the way ours has. The economy grew around 5% throughout the '90s, and over 7% even with the tsunami effects (and the large drop in *actual* tourism) in '05 and '06. Even with the LTTE air raids and doomsday predictions we've got over 6% growth predicted this year and the only thing holding the economy back was the drought and the drop in agricultural production.

    Granted Sri Lanka won't be challenging Switzerland in terms of riches anytime soon, but don't be surprised if we startle a few people once this war is over.

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  144. Illegal, I'm not comparing Malaysia to SL, just saying that that's a realistic goal.

    Sam & Golden, saying if we had 150,000 troops in '81 things would be different is inaccurate. In '81 we had more than enough troops to deal with the situ. The separatists were just a few hundred shotgun-carrying teenies on bicycles. We just handle it badly. If we'd had 150,000 troops, we would have handled it just as badly because the brains in the leadership would've been the same.

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  145. Unrelated to the above post, but today's Daily Mirror reports that Soosai was critically wounded in last week's explosion and his 5-year old son was killed. Good riddance in my opinion.

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  146. DefenceNet

    any news from vanni about soosei
    ????

    we dontc u very aften now..why ???

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  147. David

    You are wrong. I agree we have a bumbling useless leadership sometimes in this country. But if we had 150,000 troops back in '81 things would definately have been different.

    One of the main problems with the US troops in Iraq right now is that they are short on man power.

    If the US had put atleast 350,000 troops in Iraq from the very beginning like General Shinseki wanted the current Iraq insurgency would have been crushed in its infancy. I think even if the US had 350,000 troops to put on the ground now, it would be too late, the Sunni-Shia rift is too large.

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  148. David,

    do you mean the army reserves? at the moment i'm working so i don't know how realistic it is for me. however there was a time just out of high school when i was looking for an 'alternative' to simply packing off to uni.

    i must say though i would feel a lot more comfortable among our own people than among these foreigners. still it's never too late i suppose. i could certainly look into aus reserves once the workload eases up. could do with the exercise (plus i havent seen much of this country despite having lived here for sometime now).

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  149. What I cannot understand is why we haven't dropped a whammer on where velu is generally known to hang out, at least for psy-ops value. This dag is known to be manic-depressive even on a good day. Some close quarters fire works would shake the monkey's cage and rattle his marbles. Screw th e few civies who get caught in it. They can't be good guys anyway, terrorists are guilty by association.

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  150. Golden Eagle, your comment on troop numbers has no basis in fact. Back in '81 the SLA outnumbered the separatists roughly 10:1 at least (same as now). The LTTE had no sophisticated weapons (just some shotguns and SMGs). Gen Bull Weeratunge "captured" Jaffna with ease. Numbers were never the problem. Strategy, tactics, training, and national policy towards Tamils were the problems.

    And constant comparison to Iraq is also inaccurate beyond the fact that both insurgencies should've been crushed early. In Iraq the insurgency hasn't changed in character as drastically between 2003 and the present the way the LTTE has between '81 and the present. In Iraq, more numbers might've done it. In SL it wouldn't have because the Army:LTTE ratio was the same as today, except that the separatists were much weaker. So actually the Army had more of an advantage then than it has now.

    Jiffy, I meant regular Army, but reserves might work too. Why do you say you'd be more comfortable in the SL Army? Don't you work amongst "those foreigners" anyway? The Army will be the same. Besides, you probably have more in common with an Australian than a rank & file SL soldier.

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  151. well i suppose i still feel much like an outsider here. recruits here seem to be mostly farmers and labourer's sons with a general anti-foreign slant. it's this sort of insularity that bothers me, not the fact that i won't have much in common to talk about on a rainy day. heck, i could get interested in pig shooting and cattle herding (lol). now in sl at least the race element wont be there. there's been some talk of discrimination against asian recruits recently too (tip of the iceberg). now if they had compulsory national service the ethnic composition would change dramatically. anyway my interest in NS is mostly because of the social possibilities and not purely on its benefits to national security. it's good for people to realise they live in a shared space with responsibilites and obligations to those less well off.

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  152. Well, when I joined the SL Army I too felt I had nothing in common with the other guys (who were also sons of labourers and farmers), and there were very few Colombo-educated guys anyway.

    Germany has an option for military service, and that's compulsory social service for the same period of time, and many young guys take that option, so you still have your sense of duty and belonging.

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  153. always was fond of the germans. maybe we could use a similar social work program for young people in sri lanka.

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  154. Let's watch how eastern province development ties in with the rest of the war. There will be goo things happening for the people of the east if they could find visionary leadership that goes beyond stupid ethnic and religious differences. What we need is another Kadirgamar or Thonda, with a more futuristic view of things.

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